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<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>new-user friction from stream naming conventions · zulip · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
<h2>Stream: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/index.html">zulip</a></h2>
<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html">new-user friction from stream naming conventions</a></h3>

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<a name="190467921"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190467921" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Ben <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190467921">(Mar 13 2020 at 03:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>original <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-forge/issues/317" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-forge/issues/317">github issue</a></p>
<p>Zulip is new to me, and my first experience included having to parse the 't-' prefix in the stream names. . This is the first time coming across 't-', and it left me with a minor sense of 'I'm an outsider here', which I believe is considered an undesirable outcome by the rust community . The biggest contributor to this, in my experience was this:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>using <code>ctrl-f t-</code> to find explanations is problematic due to '<strong>t-</strong>$name' clashing with 'rus<strong>t-</strong>$foo' </p>
</blockquote>
<p>thus, when searching for the answer to "what is this t- prefix?" in the rust-forge book, results were polluted, obfuscating the section that explains it.</p>
<p>My take on why it caused a "sense of outsider":</p>
<ul>
<li>It seems to be an important part of how this zulip channel is organized</li>
<li>I have not come across it anywhere else.</li>
<li>Due to above mentioned clashing of 't-$team_name' and 'rust-$topic', a feeling that this was an 'insider-knowledge' started generating</li>
</ul>
<p>Proposed solution: change the 't-' prefix to 'tm-', ideally such that there is little friction when reverting back to 't-' if desired.</p>
<p>Reasoning:</p>
<ul>
<li>searching for 'tm-' will no longer clash in zulip-use documentation (at time of writing). Possibly in other important locations also.</li>
<li>'tm' is a stronger hint than 't', giving a reduced sense of obfuscation of meaning</li>
<li>as zulip newcomers become more prominent in the user-base, not knowing 't-' becomes less exclusionary. At that point, reverting back to 't-' might be desired. </li>
</ul>
<p>Caveats:<br>
It might be worth considering adding a note to the zulip documentation the reasoning for 'tm-' over 't-'.</p>



<a name="190469015"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190469015" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Ben <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190469015">(Mar 13 2020 at 03:55)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="219696">@XAMPPRocky</span> </p>
<p>I've started discussion here as recommended in your <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-forge/issues/317#issuecomment-598522668" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-forge/issues/317#issuecomment-598522668">reply</a> to the github issue.</p>
<p>I can't say anything to the historical reasons specifically to this issue. </p>
<p>If Zulip jargon is a common thing, then I could see a jargon page not being out of place. Important to note, this would mitigate the effect, as opposed to addressing the root cause directly. I'm of the view that 'tm-' would eliminate the root cause, which is almost always preferable to outcome mitigation. </p>
<p>Weighing up the value of historic preservation, and the value of mitigation/elimination on this issue, I cannot say. Also, don't forget the 'leave it' option. It might turn out that it's an insignificant issue, and doesn't justify action in any case. Don't forget the 'minor' quantifier I included, and there are other experiences which have more impact on how newcomers feel included in general. This issue could serve as a prompt to revisit this question with more generality.</p>



<a name="190471213"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190471213" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190471213">(Mar 13 2020 at 04:50)</a>:</h4>
<p>To be clear I was thinking of a general “rust-lang” jargon page, not a Zulip specific one.</p>



<a name="190472163"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190472163" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Ben <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190472163">(Mar 13 2020 at 05:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>hmmm. 't-$label' and 'wg-$label' would be listed under something like 'community jargon'?</p>



<a name="190474537"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190474537" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190474537">(Mar 13 2020 at 06:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>If we choose to rename this, why don't we go all the way to "team-" for clarity?</p>



<a name="190475628"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190475628" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Ben <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190475628">(Mar 13 2020 at 06:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>Only twe I can think of not to:  1. the 4-char overhead vs 2-char 'tm', means that the final channel name get truncated an extra 2 chars. 2.  subjective aesthetic preferences for one over the other.</p>
<p>on 2. for the sake of preventing bike-shedding and leaving zero ambiguity, I'd suggest just going for 'team' if we go for the rename. If it looks like its worth saving 2 chars, makes for better aesthetics, or (perhaps most significantly), the 0-ambiguity isn't a big deal, we can try 'tm'</p>
<p>on 1. Doesn't look like there would be significant difference based on my current sidebar (using firefox)</p>



<a name="190475836"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190475836" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190475836">(Mar 13 2020 at 06:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>I don't feel like character amount makes a huge difference since Zulip has fuzzy search for mentions e.g. Typing <code>#compiler</code> will bring up <code>#t-compiler</code>. So clarity would be preferable to being short, since if we want to be short we already have it at one character.</p>



<a name="190497937"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190497937" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190497937">(Mar 13 2020 at 12:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>I would personally be mostly fine dropping the prefixes entirely, I don't know that they necessarily buy us much. </p>
<p>However, having said that, I'm not sure if it's worth the change at this point (I think it's going to be rather painful, as it'll mean a divergence in history and links will break etc I expect); in particular because if you don't know what t- stands for it doesn't matter too much.</p>



<a name="190505668"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190505668" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190505668">(Mar 13 2020 at 14:03)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116122">@simulacrum</span> I would be against removing the prefixes because for certain teams it makes the room ambiguous and more prone to "spam" or offtopic discussion. E.g. <code>#community</code> is not obvious that it's for the community team and not the community. We've been adding prefixes to some channels in the discord to address this exact issue.</p>



<a name="190505784"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190505784" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190505784">(Mar 13 2020 at 14:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>Perhaps, yes.</p>



<a name="190505999"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190505999" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190505999">(Mar 13 2020 at 14:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>I agree I think it doesn't matter too much. I think if the onboarding for Zulip was a bit better for newcomers it would resolve most of the problem.</p>



<a name="190506048"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190506048" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> XAMPPRocky <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190506048">(Mar 13 2020 at 14:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>Maybe we can have a custom welcome message.</p>



<a name="190508621"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190508621" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Ben <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190508621">(Mar 13 2020 at 14:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>If making changes risks breakages, this could could do. It would probably be worth making a note to look back iinto it sometime down the track (asking some newcomers explicitly, or whatever) to see that it resolves things.</p>



<a name="190641009"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190641009" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> RalfJ <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190641009">(Mar 15 2020 at 10:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>note that "t-lang" etc is consistent with GitHub labels (well, almost, it's T-lang there). this is why I personally immediately understood the prefix. so if we decide this is too jargon-y and change it here, we should consistently change it there as well.<br>
probably this is less of an issue on the GH label side as labels come with a description. so maybe the missing bit here is just streams having descriptions? if t-lang would be described as "channel for the language team" or so, would that help?</p>



<a name="190647129"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190647129" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190647129">(Mar 15 2020 at 13:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>streams <em>do</em> have descriptions, but they aren't very discoverable I think in the UI which might lead to this</p>



<a name="190733443"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190733443" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Wesley Wiser <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190733443">(Mar 16 2020 at 14:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>Oh wow, I didn't even realize there were descriptions. You'd think they'd appear in a tooltip or something...</p>



<a name="190739265"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/190739265" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> bjorn3 <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#190739265">(Mar 16 2020 at 15:36)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://github.com/zulip/zulip/issues/5198" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/zulip/zulip/issues/5198">zulip/zulip#5198</a>: "Expose stream descriptions beyond subscriptions popup"</p>



<a name="191306446"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/191306446" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#191306446">(Mar 20 2020 at 21:43)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="120791">@RalfJ</span> Personality, I'd love to change them on GitHub as well. :)</p>



<a name="191422121"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/191422121" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Ben <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#191422121">(Mar 22 2020 at 23:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>Meta-Comment: I started this topic as someone <em>completely</em> uninvolved in the rust project. It's <em>very</em> reassuring seeing the nature of the response. Even knowing how fantastic the Rust community is, I was still prepared to be met with at least a small element of condescension given the nature of this issue. I haven't felt <em>any</em> sense of it. It's amazing. Anyone that has impact on the community culture deserves credit: This sort of experience doesn't come from nowhere. It comes from a long history of many people nudging things in the right direction.</p>
<p>Thank you.</p>



<a name="192104551"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/192104551" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Josh Triplett <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#192104551">(Mar 28 2020 at 04:17)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="271018">@Ben</span> Thank you as well! And yeah, that's one of the many things I love about the Rust community: there's no vitriol brought forth by questioning current practices, and instead there's a willingness to examine them if they're causing issues, or explain them if they're mysterious but explicable.</p>



<a name="193140613"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user%20friction%20from%20stream%20naming%20conventions/near/193140613" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Ben <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/122653-zulip/topic/new-user.20friction.20from.20stream.20naming.20conventions.html#193140613">(Apr 07 2020 at 04:55)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="239881">@Josh Triplett</span>  Just saw this in quote of the week  &lt;3</p>



<hr><p>Last updated: Aug 07 2021 at 22:04 UTC</p>
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